Carlo Calenda, Italian senator, leader of the Azione party

Italy is an important partner of Ukraine in the European Union, both politically and in terms of financial, humanitarian and military support. As the fourth year of Russia's full-scale aggression against Ukraine draws to a close, the position of leading European states is of exceptional importance for maintaining Western unity and strengthening assistance to Ukraine.

Carlo Calenda, the leader and founder of the Italian liberal political party Azione, is among the Italian politicians who advocate firm support for Ukraine, tougher sanctions against the Kremlin and stronger European security architecture. In his public remarks, he has repeatedly stressed that Ukraine's victory is a matter of security for all of Europe, and that concessions to Russian leader Vladimir Putin's regime would only fuel further aggression.

On the eve of the fourth anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion, the Italian politician once again visited Kyiv. In an interview with Ukrinform, he spoke about the prospects for continued support for Ukraine, the risks of populism in Europe, the future of sanctions policy and Italy's efforts to counter Russian propaganda.

PUTIN'S GOAL IS TO DESTROY EUROPE THROUGH UKRAINE

- What does this visit mean for you in such a symbolic moment - the fourth anniversary of Russia's war against Ukraine?

 - For me, the main reason to be here, I come every year, but today is to try to attract attention, especially from Italy, on the fact that you are fighting in a difficult moment where, you know, during the winter as last year and the previous year, Russia is hardly hitting all your facilities, power facilities. So you have people without energy, without heating, and therefore I think that my main mission here, first of all, to bring you the sense of our gratitude for what you are doing for us, because I think you are fighting for us, for our freedom, for the freedom of the Italians as well.

But I also want that Italians realize how much difficult is the situation here, because we are overwhelmed by Russian propaganda in Italy, and therefore you are fighting, and of course, but we are fighting in the background in order to explain to people that this is a war of aggression, it's not something you have ever wanted, and that we need to push back Putin now.

- Russia's energy terror against the civilian population of Ukraine has been added to the challenges of this war this winter. What do people in Italy know about it, and how does the Italian society react to Russia's attempt to break down the Ukrainian resistance by striking ordinary energy infrastructure?

- Now, this is always on the news, so they are aware of what is happening. The problem is that you have today so many events around the world, you know.

 Trump "is adding a lot of fun." Every day you have new ideas, new strange things like for the duties now, and then the Board of Peace, and then Iran, and whatever.

So the risk is that people tend to lose focus, and I want them to maintain a very clear focus on the fact that, yes, all the other events that are around us are very important, but the crucial point, the focal point is here in Ukraine, because either we stop Putin or we will need to fight Putin directly.

And the objective of Putin is not Ukraine, it's to destroy Europe through Ukraine, and he will keep on trying to buy pieces of Europe in order to have the breakdown of the European Union.

So it's something we are fighting together, and this is something that is difficult to explain, but we must be able to explain to the public opinion.

UKRAINE'S ENERGY RESILIENCE IS ALSO A MATTER OF TRANSITIONING TO WESTERN ENERGY STANDARDS

- People from the northern part of Italy definitely know what a cold winter means. Leaving the civilian population without heating, I think it makes some impression for the Italian society, isn't it?

- It's cruel, first of all. They feel this. I was here like two winters ago, and you were in the same situation. The problem you have is that the equipment is from Soviet Union-like standard. So it is very difficult to replace with Western standard.

So what we, what I did is I had many meetings. I called the Italian power company in order to ask them to come over. They came, and to see how can we add pieces of modern and Western standard equipment to your equipment.

So it's not just a question of replace the equipment, but also to replace the standard of the equipment. So it's not easy, but I think we need to support you in this. It's a transformation.

You're moving from Soviet Union standard and Soviet Union influence to be Europeans. So this will, at a certain point, will affect also the railway, for example.

UKRAINE AND THE EUROPEAN UNION ARE NOW CLOSELY LINKED

- The Russian embassy in Italy reacted quite sharply to your tattoo of the Ukrainian coat of arms. And you said at the time that "freedom always stood over tyranny, and if Russians are so afraid of that tattoo, then they understand that they will be definitely defeated." Given the current situation in Ukraine and across the globe, do you still believe that the free world is capable of defeating tyrannies?

- Yes, definitely.

I tell you one thing, at a certain point during the Second World War, the entire army, British army, was on Dunkirk beach, and at that point it seemed that everything was lost. But from that moment on, they started to win the war, because they found in themselves the moral strength to keep on fighting. And another came, the United States, for example. And at the end they won the war.

So what I think is that there are periods in history when tyranny seems to prevail. Because sometimes people are afraid in democracy. They think that through globalization and technological innovation they have lost purchase power, they have lost maybe also everything changed too fast. And so they want to look back, and therefore they look at political parties in the far right. And this far right around Europe is friends, they are friends with Putin, no way.

But all this is becoming to change. If you look at the last polls that the European Commission did, the European sentiment is now very strong. They are asking the European Union to be strong, to invest in defense, to support Ukraine, to be ready, because they feel for the first time, Europeans, that they are alone.

No more the United States are covering us with their military strength. And I would say that the attitude of Mr. Trump is very aggressive toward Europe. So they feel that Europe is the only way.

So this will change everything. And will change everything for us and for you. Because Ukraine and the European Union are today linked.

And if the European Union is strong, Ukraine is strong. And I hope that in a few years you will be part of the European Union.

DO NOT GIVE DONBAS TO PUTIN, BECAUSE HE WILL IMMEDIATELY LAUNCH A NEW AGGRESSION

- What do you see as the formula for a just peace for Ukraine? And how realistic do you think it is possible to achieve it, given the current situation on the front lines and development around the discussion of peace talks?

- The only acceptable solution, in my opinion, is that you have the front line freezed. Without the recognition of what Russia has stolen from Ukraine. So just, you know, stop in fighting, but no territorial concession.

Especially as far as the fortress belt in Donbass is concerned. You know what is interesting? I recently read a book about Monaco in 1938. And the Sudeti, the part of Czechoslovakia that Hitler wanted, was also a kind of fortress belt.

And after Hitler got the Sudeti, and then the whole Czechoslovakia, Hitler told to Speer, who was one of his best friends, Look, we would have never, ever gotten the fortress belt in the Sudeti. And they gave us for free in peace talks.

So don't give your fortress belt for free.

Because Russians then, they will go straight for Kyiv.

And I'm so sorry, and I'm so concerned about Trump, which I consider, my personal opinion, Trump as a Putin asset, that Trump is pushing President Zelensky to give away part of the Donbass. The fortress belt. Because I understand that the opposition is very difficult.

Pushed by Trump, pushed by Putin. But you have to resist. As Europeans, we will keep on sending you money and weapons.

Don't give that piece of Ukraine to Putin. Because he will immediately start a new aggression. And then will be much more difficult to stop him.

- Despite sending us weapons and munitions and the money, we also need from Europe the pressure on Russia. First of all, the sanctions pressure. What about the sanctions pressure? Is Italy ready to put pressure on the dark fleet of Russia? Is Italy ready to cap all of these ships?

- Yeah, we did it.

We need to do more. Actually, I read on, I think, Financial Times, that there is an inflow of money coming from the dark fleet and the oil, let's say, oil from Russia, sales through, I guess, Dubai, if I well understood, which was very big, like 9 billion or so. We had a couple of cases in Italy, and we stopped the tankers.

I think we need to focus on that, because the only source of money for Putin, which is in a very bad situation today, from an economic point of view in Russia, is to cut off the money he's making out of oil.

ITALY SHOULD FOLLOW ITS PARTNERS' LEAD AND INCREASE MILITARY SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE

- In October 2025, Italy announced its readiness to join PURL, the mechanism for financing the purchase of American weapons for Ukraine. However, in December, it refused to participate amid discussions about a possible ceasefire. Recently, Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni noted that the truce is still far away. So, in your opinion, is it possible for Italy to change the decision on its participation in PURL in a positive way?

- Italy must participate.

We are bound to do this. We promised this. Unfortunately, in the government, in the majority, you have Salvini that, as you may know, although he's today very weak, he's a Putin puppet.

So, in my last speech in the Senate, what I said is, look, you, we, as Italy, are committed to use PURL. We said we would have used PURL. And now, you have to be consistent with your promises.

We will keep on pushing on that. Because we are the only country with Spain in 2025 that have weakened the support in terms of bilateral support to Ukraine, which is not acceptable. Because if you look at what Germany did, France did, Great Britain did, they sent more weapons because the U.S. is not sending weapons anymore.

So, we are bound to do this. And we keep on pushing Melani to do it.

- In order to reduce support for Ukraine, Russian propaganda often appeals to pacifistic sentiment in Italian society. What argument do you use in public debates to convince people that they are actually destroying the reality and weakening the security position of Italy and Europe as well?

- Yeah, I do this all the time. You know what? I use my example.

In 2014, I was minister. Minister for Economic Development. So, industry, energy, and so on and so forth. At a certain point, it was around like 2016, I guess. Beginning of 2016, end of 2015. Something like this. Then, Putin invites us in St. Petersburg. Sanctions were in place, but very low level of sanctions. And I went there with Matteo Renzi. At that time, Matteo Renzi was the prime minister. And we brought with us all the companies.

And the assumption was, in all Europe, well, if we give Crimea to Putin, then Putin will be satisfied and he will stop being aggressive. So, there will be peace, no problem. We can keep on buying gas from Putin. By the way, I met Putin that time. My impression was that I was just in front of pure evil.

But we decided, as Europe as a whole, and I was part of European government, to ignore the fact that Putin was playing around this give me the Crimea, I will stay calm, I will not invade Ukraine. And he already started with Donbas and Donetsk.

So, I use my personal experience and my mistake to explain to public opinion in Italy that if we give up in confronting Putin, Putin will be more aggressive. Because this is what happened in the past. This is what happened after 2014.

The reason why there was the aggression, large-scale aggression to Ukraine, is that we were very weak after the Crimea. So, whenever you are weak with a dictator, the dictator feels stronger. And if he feels stronger, he will make new aggression.

That's history. We should have learned by history. And we made mistakes, and now we know, and we should behave accordingly.

PUTIN'S PROPAGANDA IS LESS EFFECTIVE IN NORTHERN EUROPE, AND ITALY IS A WEAK LINK

- Has Russian propaganda in Italy increased during these four years of full-scale invasion?  

- Yes, very much. One interesting thing is that if you look at hybrids attack, Russia mainly concentrates hybrids attack to countries in the north of Europe, like Great Britain, the Baltics, Germany and so on and so forth.

Now, Italy is in a different position, seems to be left aside without relevant hybrids attack. Why this is happening? Because Putin knows very well that his propaganda in Italy is working very well. And that he can count on five-star movements, which is a party in the left, and Lega and Salvini, which is a party in the right.

So he is manipulating both the government and the majority and the opposition. And that's why we are in the center and we are fighting hard. I've been, you know, I am always in television fighting all the fake news that they are delivering.

I have a very tough confrontation with Mr. Sachs, Jeffrey Sachs, for example, who is reconstructing, I mean, telling a story about Euromaidan, which is completely false.

And I think that the major risk in Italy is not the hybrid attacks, because Putin is very smart. He will not, he knows that in North, there is no point for him to, you know, try to manipulate people, because they know very well who he is.

With Italy, he is doing true propaganda. So the main fight for me and for those that support Ukraine is to work on social network, to be in television, to be on the press. And this is what I do all the time.

- You position yourself as a consistent opponent of populism. Do you see the effective strategy of anti-populist forces in EU countries today?

- No, to be honest.

The problem is that you have the far right and the far left that are stronger, especially the far right. United States, not only with Trump, but also with Vance, support the far right. They are totally in agreement with Putin.

So they do foresee for Europe kind of, you know, member states that are in the end of far right that then surrender to Putin and to Trump, you know, duties. And so, yeah, no. We are not doing very effectively.

We should do better. And what I'm trying to do is to create a front in the center of the political arena, a front of liberal party, popular party in order to fight the two populists. You know, if you look at, you know, at Italy, what surprised me is that in the fourth anniversary of large-scale aggression, you don't have member of governments here.

You don't have Secretary of Opposition Party beside me, which is very strange. So there's something that is happening in Italy which is not positive.

And one of the reasons why I am here because from here I can go to, you know, use Italian television saying, why? Why I am the only one here? Why you are not with me? You are saying that you are pro-Ukraine.

And this is (my message - ed.) for the left and for the right.

- Let's speak about culture. Over the past year, protests by the Ukrainian community in Italy have led to the cancellation of concerts of Russian artists such as Valery Gergiev, opera singer Aldar Abdrazakov, ballerina Svetlana Zakharova and violinist Vadim Repin. Despite heated debates, the significant part of Italian public accepted the argument that art should not be a tool of propaganda. Will Italian society be resilient enough to counter further attempts by Russia to return to Italy's cultural space?

- Well, as of today, we were able to cancel most of those events. It was very difficult to do it.

We fought very hard in order to explain the difference between an independent artist which is always welcome in Italy, even from Russia, and those artists that are used for propaganda and are part of the Putin scheme in order to spread the propaganda around Europe. So, you have two different categories. I have no problem with independent artists if they are detached from, Putin's organisation. But they are part of Putin's organisation. And therefore, we cannot accept they come over here.

Is it difficult? Is it becoming more difficult? Yes, it's becoming more difficult. At the very beginning of large-scale aggression, almost all the parties were with Ukraine. No question. No difficulties to organize relevant demonstrations with many people attending. As of today, it's much more difficult.

This means that, Putin propaganda is working well.

This means also that there are many other things that are attracting attention, such as, you know, what is happening in Gaza, what is happening in Iran, what is happening in the White House. So, there are conditions that are independent from Putin propaganda. But also, Putin propaganda is working very well in Italy.

And that's why Putin is not attacking, directing with hybrid attacks Italy. Because he knows that we are the weakest link (in terms of propaganda - ed).

A SIGNIFICANT PART OF ITALY'S ELITE WAS RAISED ON SOVIET CULTURE

- What about Italian society? Do they really like Russian culture and are they just waiting for the war in Ukraine to end? Or do they see real picture of the propaganda which is spread through culture?

- We are in a difficult position in Italy about that because, you know, we have had for many years the most important Communist Party in Europe.

They had like 30% of the votes. And those, you know, that voted for Communist Party are already here. And they have been educated and instructed to think that Russia or Soviet Union at that time is kind of point of reference as far as culture is concerned.

Myself, I like very much Tolstoy and so on and so forth. But there is more than this in there. They think they are against the Western world.

So in Italy you have piece of the society that thinks that the responsibilities lie always with the Western world. So that is not Putin's fault. But it's NATO's fault. It's not Putin's fault. It's American fault. And it's not that they are against you.

They simply think that, you know, Ukraine has always been part of the sphere of influence of Russia. Why should we support that? Now, this is not the majority of the Italians, but they are very influential because the intellectual elite of Italy has been educated in this way and they were mainly part of the Communist Party, the former Communist Party. And therefore they tend to say, OK, but, you know, we were right.

Western war is losing. And what I'm saying is, well, if we lose, then dictators will come over. And the paradox is that you have left on the street every day saying that Meloni is fascist.

But if you compare Meloni with Putin, you would see who is really the fascist one. They should come here What I really am pushing very much the party leaders to come here because they will then immediately realize what is happening here, which is an historical confrontation between who wants to be free and tyranny. And we have experienced this in Italy.

And given the fact that the left is always making reference to the resistance in Italy, the partisans. But I always say that the partisans are here and the resistance is here. And if they want to speak about resistance, they have to come here and understand what the resistance to tyranny means in reality today.

- So, you have already visited Ukraine four times. You have been in Lviv, Kyiv, Odesa. So, what were the strongest impressions from all of these trips and what do you tell Italians first and foremost after returning home?

- Well, I had many experiences that for me that remained with me. Part of my part of my spirit, I would say.

Once I was visiting the wall with all the you know, the wall near Santa Sofia. You know, the big wall. I was over there.

A memorial. And we just when we were there, there was a funeral of a young soldier.

He was 25. And there were all his comrades. You know, they were on their knees while the coffin was moved with the flag.

And I thought, you know, I have four children. My feeling was we have no idea of how much you need to be brave and courageous to stop your normal life and to take a rifle and go to fight the enemy. And that scene remained with me.

And then I met with an artist. He is from Kharkiv, I guess. He made a very nice movie.

And he was working with ceramics. He's an artist. And he said the phrase which I will use for my next book as the open phrase because he said, look, I really when Russians came, I really would have liked to flee, to escape.

And then I thought that at a certain point I would have reached the ocean. And in any case, I would have to turn and fight, which is exactly where we are today as Europeans. We are already on the beach.

There is no other place to go. We have dictators all around us. We need to fight.

- Thank you one more time for your assistance. Thank you for supporting our struggle and for the true assistance to Europe to become stronger and much more powerful. And thank you one more time for visiting Ukraine during these days.

- This is something that for me is a moral obligation. I think you are fighting for me. My sons are not dying because yours are dying.

So the obligation is all with me. Thank you.

Yurii Chornyi, Kyiv

Photo credit: Yevhen Kotenko / Ukrinform

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