Ruben Brekelmans, Dutch Defense Minister

Almost 1% of the Netherlands’ GDP goes to military aid to Ukraine. They have provided F-16 fighter jets and trained Ukrainian pilots, joined the Drone Coalition, a Danish model for financing the Ukrainian military-industrial complex, and are purchasing American weapons for Ukraine.

In an interview with Ukrinform, the Defense Minister of the Netherlands, Ruben Brekelmans, said that his country continues to look for ways to best help Ukraine in its fight against Russia.

During his visit to Kyiv, he told the Agency about a new support package for intercepting Russian drones and the results of Dutch assistance in Donbas.

WE PROVIDE €200 MILLION TO UKRAINE FOR COUNTER-DRONE SYSTEMS

– How was your visit to Ukraine? What did you manage to achieve during you trip?

– We have been in Ukraine for two days and announced three things. First is another support package of 200 million euros for counter-drone systems. Last night, there was a big air attack again that showed once more how much Ukraine needs them, together with counter-drone ammunition.

Second, we signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Minister of Defense Shmyhal as part of the Build with Ukraine initiative. It facilitates the establishment of joint ventures between Ukrainian and Dutch companies, allowing the ramping up of production in both countries. It was a key milestone in this cooperation.

Third, we officially announced the Dutch defense cluster in Kyiv. We have many Dutch companies that want to come here, invest, and further develop their technologies and capabilities. So, it will optimise and coordinate their activities.

– The Netherlands invests in drones and has started a production line in Born. What mission do you set for them, and when will we see them on the front line?

– Let me mention a few things. One is the drone line initiative – a project of 500 million euros to produce drones in Ukraine for the Donbas front line. Minister of Defense Rustem Umerov, earlier this year, asked us in the Hague to invest in this project and whether we can allocate 100 or 200 million. We decided to invest the full 500 million in four Ukrainian companies. Over 600,000 drones are produced and are used right now.

I was visiting Minister of Digital Transformation Mykhailo Fedorov earlier today. He showed us the results of this initiative and how those drones are defending the front line in the Donbas. Seeing these results was truly remarkable because the impact is very strong.

We also invest in more confidential initiatives. I cannot share full details, but it is different types of drones.

And we are setting up production in the Netherlands to deliver to Ukraine. Something is already here, namely, radar systems and different types of drones.

We are now setting up, as part of the Build with Ukraine initiative, a joint venture in the Netherlands between Ukraine and a Dutch company. I cannot announce the full details. Some finalisation is still needed, but I expect it to start relatively soon.

WE CAN LEARN FROM OUR INVESTMENT IN UKRAINE

– Do you discuss in the Drone coalition how Ukraine can deal with fibre optic drones?

– We know it is a continuous cat-and-mouse game, and jamming is an important instrument. We also know Russia is trying to work around that. There are different innovations to intercept. Thus, we are investing 200 million. Ukraine needs more counter-drones, so we need to invest in innovations.

I am not a technical expert and do not know all the details about how to take out those fibre drones. However, it is not the best thing to share this in public because Russians are reading with a lot of interest. That is a dilemma with many things we have. We tell the public about the investments and mutual projects with Ukraine that we are proud of.

– Russians also started their drone hybrid war against European countries. In late September, your country was no exception. So, do you think Europe has to act more strongly and shoot them down? And will you find a cheaper response to drones made out of plastic and wood than the F-35?

– We should distinguish between two things. We have seen Russian Shahed drones entering NATO airspace by crossing the border from Ukraine. It was very clear that they were Russian.

Second, we have seen various drone incidents in Denmark, Norway, Belgium, and Germany, where it remains unclear who is behind them. We remain suspicious, but it still needs to be determined whether it could be part of Russia's hybrid strategy. The investigation into these incidents is still ongoing.

When the drones were entering the Polish airspace, Dutch F-35s took some of them out. It was historic because it happened for the first time under the NATO flag. People in Romania, the Baltic states and everywhere were asking, "Where's NATO? Why is NATO not reacting?" And for the first time, it was the Dutch F-35s. For the first time, NATO take those drones out. I am very proud of that.

I fully agree that we need to invest in cheaper options. We do have systems, but we do not have them at the scale and interconnected. It is a challenge for NATO and Europe to make sure we build a system able to protect the Eastern flank against drone incursions.

I think we can learn from Ukraine a lot. That is also one of the reasons why we invest 200 million.  It is first and foremost to support you, but also so that we can learn ourselves and, maybe, use the same systems as the Netherlands and as NATO later.

– Talking about our experience. Former commander Valerii Zaluzhnyi stated that cheap yet effective weapons will decide future wars. Where are the Netherlands on an imaginary spectrum from the U.S., which spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on a piece of weaponry, and Ukraine, which built cheap drones?

– I think you need to have everything. To deter Russia, we have the most advanced capabilities, like those F-35s. But you also need cheap weapons on a large scale.

We, in the Netherlands, invest in those capabilities, but we do not have enough of everything. Our military is training using it, but they still need to gain more experience. That is why we raise our defense budget and announce new investment packages.

We always spend a lot on innovation to ensure we not only buy the old systems, but the modern generation of weapons systems as well. We also must combine innovations with industrialisation and speed with skill. I think there is a lot we need to do in the Netherlands.

THE NETHERLANDS WILL KEEP LOOKING AT WHERE IT CAN ADD THE MOST VALUE

– You are also one of the top contributors to the PURL mechanism that is used to buy American weapons via NATO. How do you assess its effectiveness, and will you be able to sustain it in the long run?

– We were the first country to fund one of the PURL packages. We saw how important and urgent it is. There are ammunition and weapons systems that Ukraine urgently needs and that are unavailable anywhere else – only from American stock, like Patriot missiles.

We also consciously wanted to encourage others to invest. It is still my message to other countries. We have seen some Northern European countries, but more is needed because Ukraine still urgently requires more air defense missiles and other types of ammunition and weapon systems.

We are also always open to doing more, so we are considering that. We invest in drones, F-16s from our budget, and provide support on maritime security, which is also important for the defense of Ukraine. We always need to reassess our priorities, but we will keep looking at where we can add the most value.

Ivan Kosiakin, Kyiv

Photos from Ukrinform's archive and the author