Pavlo Klimkin, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

26.05.2016 13:15

Russian weaponry in Donbas, if Russia denies sending it there, should be disposed under OSCE control

In recent months there have been controversial news from France, the country that is considered as founder of the Normandy format and is one of active participants of the Minsk process. First, the lower house of Parliament unexpectedly approves a declarative resolution on sanctions against Russia at odds with the government's position. Subsequently, some media in different ways interpret a statement by the country’’ interior minister regarding the visa-free regime with Ukraine. And finally, the Elysee Palace issues a formal communique on the content of phone talks of Normandy Four leaders, which in no way mentions Ukraine’s initiative - the introduction of a police mission in eastern Ukraine.

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin, who was on a one-day working visit to Paris, agreed to fill information gaps at Ukrinform’s request. What can one person do during one working day, where exactly the destiny of the police mission to Ukraine will be determined, what are the plans of the French parliament, does Pavlo Klimkin have tickets for Euro 2016 and how soon Ukrainians will be able to use national driving license in France, read this in an exclusive interview with the minister.

FRANCE ASSURED THAT THE CONSIDERATION OF VISA-FREE TRAVEL WILL BE BASED ON CRITERIA, NOT POLITICAL PREREQUISITES

Pavlo Anatoliyovych, overnight into Monday the Normandy Four leaders held another round of talks on the Minsk process, and Tuesday morning you met with your vis-à-vis French [French Minister of Foreign Affairs Jean-Marc Ayrault] at Quai d'Orsay. What did you discuss with Jean-Marc Ayrault?

It’s true, the day began with a meeting with Jean-Marc Ayrault, Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Development of France. We discussed the outcome of Normandy talks, and agreed on the need to ensure security as the condition for any further development of situation. We discussed our further steps in consolidating the basic parameters of OSCE [Special Monitoring] mission, the distribution of powers and responsibilities among its representatives and future police mission. We raised the issue of electoral modalities. In the near future I’m planning to speak with [German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter] Steinmeier about our future steps.

In addition, we have touched on the agenda of relations and cooperation with the European Union. In particular, the issue of visa-free regime, we discussed the agenda of bilateral relations. Thus, this was the fruitful bilateral meeting.

Did you have any other meetings in Paris?

Today I’ve also had a lot of meetings in the French parliament. Furthermore, both in the National Assembly and the Senate. We spoke about what we (Ukraine) do and therefore what Russia fails to do to fulfill the Minsk agreements. The meeting was attended by MPs that traditionally hold pro-Russian position.

Were you accompanied only by Ukrainian diplomats?

I was in the French parliament together with Ukrainian MP Oleksiy Honcharenko, who is a co-chairman of Ukraine-France friendship group. We had quite an emotional discussion with some MPs in both houses [of Parliament]. But in general, the position of the French parliament is very clear. It is connected with the need of Minsk agreements implementation, the recognition of the annexation of Crimea so that sanctions can be lifted only after the full implementation of the Minsk agreements. And as usually I had a meeting with French journalists and experts.

Besides, I had a separate meeting with French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve. We discussed problems of visa-free regime and the vision how to move forward taking into account that a special procedure has been lately introduced

What do you mean?

This is the procedure that determines in what way the European Commission can decide on the suspension of visa-free regime, if there are some violations. This proceeds from recent migration flows. We have discussed common vision.

But in the EU a rise in migration flows is considered as a threat…

In the near future I will meet with other interior ministers of the European Union, as we should understand how the established procedure will develop, and for us it is important that there are no attempts at political level to interpret criteria that are obvious at first sight so that to strip of visa-free regime. And of course my thesis was the fact that we should be considered as a country that has fulfilled all needed requirements for the introduction of visa-free regime.

ARMED MISSION OF OSCE, SEPARATE FROM THE MONITORING MISSION, IS NEEDED IN EASTERN UKRAINE

Mr. Minister, today Kyiv and Moscow interpret in different ways the statements made by Normandy Four leaders regarding possible deployment of a police mission in eastern Ukraine. In particular, the Kremlin stated the statements concerned the special monitoring mission, rather a separate OSCE police mission. Could you explain this, please.

Well, first of all, the OSCE special monitoring mission has no mandate to ensure elections in eastern Ukraine. We can talk about different options, but at present we believe that we need a separate mission. This should be the separate, armed mission of OSCE, which should provide security before the elections, during the elections and after the elections. If we are not able to provide at least basic security conditions of the election campaign, we can’t talk about fair and free elections, and elections in general. Secondly, we should understand that such a mission should present there. And in what form it will be – this is the subject of further discussions until normal life returns to Donbas, otherwise nobody can feel safe.

Well, but from the very beginning of conflict Russia has denied its involvement in the war and the presence of its weapons in eastern Ukraine ...

If Russia categorically denies sending weaponry - although the whole world understands that weaponry belongs to it – and this weaponry should be gathered and disposed under the full control of the international community, under the OSCE supervision. We should jointly decide what mission will do this, or they will do this in cooperation. All of these issues are the subject for further discussion.

UKRAINE AND FRANCE TO DEEPEN COOPERATION IN FIGHTING TERRORISM

Let's go back to your meeting with Minister Bernard Cazeneuve. Soon there will be the European Football Championship, France is the host country. Has he invited you to attend one of the 2016 Euro matches in France? And have you discussed the issues of providing security to the national team of Ukraine and Ukrainian fans?

As to the 2016 European Football Championship, we touched on this topic only in brief. Bernard (smiling) hasn’t invited me personally. And I was not expecting this. But we both agreed and confirmed that Ukraine and France should deepen cooperation in many spheres, including in the fight against terrorism. This is the question needed to be considered by relevant structures of Ukraine. And, of course, all the cooperation, not only the issues of visa-free regime, is based on trust.

Within the bilateral relations between Ukraine and France, have you discussed with the interior minister the possibility of mutual recognition of driving licenses in our countries?

Firstly, we have been discussing this issue with the French side for a long time. Ukraine has positive experience regarding this issue in Spain, at present we use this experience in Italy. I know there is a problem, it is less acute here in France. however, today we haven’t raised this issue at the Foreign Ministry. I remember very well that this issue was discussed at recent interdepartmental consultations between our countries. And, of course, we will continue to move in this direction. In my opinion, this is a matter of national competence, we should decide on the basis of bilateral agreements, but it concerns the global context. At present there should be mutual recognition of many things, as they relate to the sphere of "abolition of borders." And this is very important.

RESOLUTION ON THE ABOLITION OF SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA HAS UNDERGONE CHANGES THAT WILL MAKE IT USEFUL

Mr. Minister, what are your feelings after visiting the French parliament? Does it have the “critical amount [of votes]” needed for the Senate to pass a declarative resolution on the abolition of sanctions against Russia?

As of today, the Committee on European Affairs has drawn up a draft resolution. This draft was adopted by the National Assembly of Franc not just by the majority, but only several tens of MPs. [During the vote not many MPs were present in the hall, 55 MPs voted "for", 45 - "against", while the total number of MPs of the lower chamber French Parliament is 577]. As far as I understand, the situation, which took place in the Palais Bourbon [French National Assembly], is the following many MPs did not expect such a development of events that there will be a positive vote. But it services proper experience. At present all people I’ve met are ready to work with the text of the resolution so as to make it the document aimed at the implementation of the Minsk agreements.

In other words, Ukrainians should expect a new text of the French draft resolution?

The idea is that the resolution, which is to be considered, has undergone such changes that will make this document very important and useful for bilateral cooperation. As Russia and Russian propaganda want to use their supporters to present this resolution as a political signal for lifting sanctions. But I’ve noticed such intentions neither in the Senate, nor in the French National Assembly. Although, of course, any decision can be interpreted in a positive sense for yourself. And we should not allow this. That is why I discussed European agenda and the implementation of the Minsk agreements at meetings as with ministers and representatives of the National Assembly and the Senate, because France is an integral part of the Normandy format.

The Russian propaganda tries in any possible way to spread the thesis that Ukraine allegedly does not implement the Minsk, that it doesn’t vote on the required laws, and today I have thoroughly explained the way the Minsk is fulfilled [in Ukraine] and how consultations in the Normandy format are held. It was important for many members of Parliament to hear about the process of carrying out reforms in Ukraine, for example – the establishment of efficient system for combating corruption and other introductions. We can’t expect from each French parliamentarian that he or she starts the day with news about Ukraine and finishes it with them. Therefore, every opportunity should be used. I hope that today I’ve used it properly.

Roman Sushshenko. Paris